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January 06, 2006

新春討論 河野&石川&井上 ~選挙制度、民営化について~

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藤澤 やはり選挙制度は変わるか。
河野 変わらないね。なぜかと言うと、今の小選挙区で当選した人たちが、賛成・反対の権利を持っているから。今受かっているのに「変えよう」という気にはなかなかならない。だから今の議員を横に置いといて、「新しい選挙制度を作ろう」という人たちが集まれば、「比例はなくした方がいい」などと、色んな案は出てくると思うが、最後に審議して投票するのは議員たちだからね。この人たちの大多数はこのままでと思っていると思う。
ただ、総定数が変わるといった状況はあるかもしれない。
石川 それと中選挙区制を経験した者として、脱派閥を進めたいのなら、小選挙区制の方がいい。例えば83会など中選挙区制だと絶対生まれない。同じ選挙区で戦い合う仲もいるから。むしろ小選挙区制のままの方がいいのでは。いずれにしても選挙制度というのは神様ではなく、人間が作るものだから必ず欠点がある。
藤澤 改革路線については
石川 少し改革という言葉が流行語になりすぎているきらいがある。そもそも歴史とは改革の積み重ね。今は改革と言うより、大改革の時だ。以前では考えられなかったものが、どんどん民営化されている。ただ、必ずどんな改革にも欠点がある。改革後にそれを洗い出すのが大事なんだ。まさに耐震偽装はそこ。
河野 年末の耐震偽装の事件はひどく、国会で証人喚問をするということも起こった。
まあ、考えてみると、政治が官から民へ、中央から地方へと一つの流れを作っていて、これをしっかりとやらないと国際競争力もなくなるし、新しい時代にも対応できなくなってしまう。だからこの官から民への流れはその通りだと思う。
井上 今回の郵政民営化に表されるように、「改革を進めていくんだ」という気運は国民的にも盛り上がっている。だからこそ憲法と同じく、先を見据えた改革をしっかりとやって行かなければならないと思っている。
河野 ただ、やはり見ていると、どこまで官から民へと移すかが問題だ。官がやらなければならない分野と、民がやったらいい分野とがあって、そこの線引きがしっかりとされていないといけない。耐震偽装にしてもその一つ。結局責任の所在がわからなくなってきている。大変な迷惑で、結局最後は国家が相当なお金を出す、つまり国民の税金を投入する話になっている。これは問題で官から民への話は立法府がよくチェックしなければならない。
また、ああいった事件がおきると「官から民へしたのは間違いだった」とすぐ指摘する人もいるが、民間に移していたからこそ、 認可もスムースに下りていたもの。それをまた官へ移すとなると検査官なども増やさなければならず、「民が駄目なら、また官へ戻せばいい」という簡単な話にはならない。その辺をもう一度踏まえて、立法府は官から民への流れを考えねばならない。
井上 私も議長と同じく、ちょっと疑問に思っているのが、改革とは「改革すればいい」というのではなくて、「良く変えなくては意味がない」ということ。なんだか「壊し屋」みたいな話に最近なっていないかと懸念する。「特別会計はゼロでいい」とか、ちょっとおかしいのではないか。
河野 政府系金融機関は一つとかもだ。なぜあれが一つでなければならないのか分からない。
井上 やはりそこには理屈があって世の中の状況に合わせてという目を持っていく。そうした中で今一つだけ申し上げるならば、現在トピックになっている耐震偽装の問題。これで私が思うのは、「民間で出来ることは民間」でという小泉首相が言っている話。ここで私がちょっと違うと思っているのは、これだけ経済や技術が発展してきた中で、「民間で出来ないことはない」と思っている。
河野 今は戦争まで民間でやっている。
井上 そうです。民間軍事会社がやっている時代ですから。そうなると今大切なのは、「民間でやるべきことは何なのか」。それを見極めてやっていかねばならない。
その上で民間に任せてやっていく訳だが、そうなると今度は民間の方の見識が問われる。日本が成熟した国家になったから、官から民へと移していく。これまでのように官が懐疑的に民間を見て、事前の規制をかけるのではなく、民間に任せて事後のチェックをしていこうというのは、確かにその通りだと思う。
しかし、果たして国民がそこまで成熟しているのかというのには疑問が残る。残念ながらそうではない人たちもいる。そこをどう担保していくか。私が心配しているのは、例えば耐震偽装にしても実は民間解放して事後チェックにした方がマンパワーがかかってしまうのではないかということ。そうなると「小さな政府」ではなく、「大きな政府」になってしまうのではないか。そうだとすると、総理が言っていることは矛盾してしまわないかと懸念している。
河野 例えば検査官を政府が認定して、その検査官が「いいよ」と言っても、その検査官が間違ったら最後の尻拭いは認定した国がしなければならなくなる。その検査官は尻拭いはできないから、最後は国が面倒をみなければならない、というのがあっちでもこっちでも起こったら大変なことになる。

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